This is a blog post by Donna Zuckerberg (Eidolon), following up on her keynote at our 2018 AGM. We would like to thank Donna again for her important contribution to the day.
Who Do We Think We Are?
A few weeks ago, I had the privilege of (virtually) speaking to the attendees of the WCC’s AGM about harassment and abuse. I spent a significant portion of that talk recounting my own experiences, but I want to summarize my argument here – and hopefully encourage further discussion.
I believe that when you’re receiving a massive volume of trolling and harassment – much of which is specifically calibrated to make you doubt your sense of logic and reality, and much of which is designed to make you doubt your credentials and qualifications – and you’re also trying to cope with the near-certainty that some of the people you work with in a professional context either agree with the trolls or at least feel that you brought the trolling on yourself by engaging in public scholarship – it is almost impossible to respond to even the most respectful, collegial critique without feeling attacked, often to a degree that is entirely disproportionate to how the critique was intended. So if we as a field want to be thoughtful and compassionate toward victims of harassment, we need to rethink the tone, tenor, and timing of even our professional, collegial discourse.
Laurie Penny recently wrote: “Unless you’re on the receiving end, it might seem strange, even offensive, to equate mainstream critique with the outright violence of anonymous far-right and anti-woman extremists. But for those of us who go through it every day, the context collapses into a flat field where people are firing at you from all sides and there’s no cover, not for you… Whoever you ask, it’s always someone else doing the real harassment — it’s those men over there who are violent and sexist, whereas our way of dealing with difficult women is reasonable and fair. It’s legitimate critique.” She continues, “Most people experiencing the spittle-flecked, dedicated kill-you-cunt wank-mobbery of the comments section are also subject to the self-satisfied concern-trolling of the top half of the internet.”
I can attest to the truth of this statement. As I was receiving an avalanche of abuse, a former coworker of mine at the Paideia Institute sent me a message telling me that he was deeply sorry for what I was going through and his children were praying for me. But he also wanted me to publish in Eidolon a response he’d written to “How to Be a Good Classicist Under a Bad Emperor,” the article I’d written that had led to my harassment. In his response, he argued that the real victims are the professors who are sympathetic to some of the Alt-Right’s less openly offensive ideas and who have been silenced and shamed by thought-policing arguments like the one I made in my piece. I was then pressured by another colleague to publish the piece to show the scope of my dedication to spirited yet civil disagreement. But while the tone of the dialogue was civil, and the tone of the first colleague’s email could even be called kind, I felt attacked.
I’ve also received many messages from people I don’t know that say, more or less, “I hate that you’re getting death threats, but I also think that you absolutely could not be more wrong.” On a surface level, there’s nothing wrong with that kind of message, and I believe that it is sent with good intentions. But I want to argue that it is unreasonable, even cruel, to expect or demand from someone to whom you send that kind of message that they respond by engaging dispassionately with your reasoned critique of their argument. And if we agree that we have some kind of ethical responsibility to protect, or at least support, our colleagues who experience trolling and harassment, we need to reconceptualize how we want to have professional disagreements with each other.
But does this ethical responsibility exist? Obviously, many among us would say that it does not. I speak about this issue very much from the context of someone who was educated in and operates in the United States, where whether to engage in public scholarship is still a choice. My understanding is that the situation in the United Kingdom with the REF is much more complex – that, indeed, one could make an argument that public engagement is mandatory in the UK, and not a choice at all. In that case, the ethical responsibility would seem to me to be obvious. But even if one does have a choice in the matter, as my colleagues in the U.S. do, I think that responsibility still exists. This is a key part of an argument made by Tressie McMillam Cottom, who argues that “public engagement” is often conceptualized as a de facto good without reference to a cui bono. She argues, in effect, that the neoliberal university encourages professors to put themselves into positions where they are likely to become the targets of vicious online attacks. She writes, “Academic capitalism promotes engaged academics as an empirical measure of a university’s reputational currency.” This is important to remember because the “decision” to engage publicly can, to an observer, look like shameless self-promotion or attention-seeking.
Many people who engage in public scholarship do so out of a genuine desire to democratize knowledge about our field and partially because of immense pressure from both within and without the university to justify the existence of the humanities through public engagement. That kind of pressure is real and very powerful. So while the question of whether or not to engage in public scholarship may indeed be a personal choice, it is a choice that benefits not only the person who engages, but in some ways the entire discipline. There are many of our colleagues who don’t really want to write for the general public, even in the face of all that pressure, and we should absolutely support that decision – but those colleagues may then have an even more pressing obligation to support those of our colleagues who do venture out into the treacherous domain of the internet and are then punished for it.
So if you agree with me that we have an ethical responsibility to support our colleagues who are harassed for their public scholarship, and you also agree that it is extremely difficult for those colleagues to respond in an appropriate manner to reasoned critique, how do we protect our ability to critique each other? Because, of course, that ability is of the utmost importance to us. It is, more or less, what academia is for: we put forward our ideas, we disagree with each other, we try to move discourse forward. We have to be able to disagree, even vigorously, with our colleagues. And sometimes the harassment of those colleagues is triggered by an argument that we may feel needs to be critiqued and contextualized. How we handle that critique and contextualization, however, will be the key question here.
Many of my suggestions here are simple common sense. If your colleague is being harassed, be kind. Be supportive. Tell them her you respect her, and resist the efforts made by trolls to minimize her accomplishments and frame her as a vapid attention-seeker. That kind of support can really make a difference to a colleague who’s experiencing gaslighting. Troll attacks are designed to make their victims doubt reality, and you can help her remember what reality looks like.
But maybe you feel that the reality is that your colleague was wrong, or could have made her argument with more thought or nuance. If you feel that way, and you’re tempted to engage her about it, think carefully first about what you’re trying to accomplish by it. Are you hoping to convince your colleague that she made a mistake? Because I guarantee, if she’s experiencing a troll storm, she already feels that way. She probably feels like it was a mistake to ever express any opinion in public. Or maybe your goal is to show that reasonable, civil discourse can still exist between colleagues?
If so, I would like to suggest: don’t address your critique directly to your colleague. Think carefully about who your intended audience really is. If the harassment is ongoing, then it is cruel to make your colleague the intended audience of your critique, and you may be contributing to her trauma. So don’t frame it as an attempt to engage, or an “open letter.”
By all means, make a bigger, more thoughtful argument about why what your colleague said was made from flawed premises. Stay far, far away from ad hominem attacks – engage with the ideas, but not with the individual. When the tidal wave of abuse has gone back out to sea, maybe she’ll be able to confront your argument in a substantive manner and really hear you and take it to heart. But let it be her choice whether to come to you and debate the issue, and maybe extended her a little more latitude than you normally would if her response to you seems a little disproportionately emotional or defensive. To you, it may just be another professional discussion, but to her it’s part of a much larger and nastier phenomenon.
But remember: if your intended audience for your critique is not your colleague, but rather a general public to whom you want to explain why her arguments were flawed, then your goal is, in fact, to engage in a form of public scholarship. Which means that you’ll be putting yourself out there too. You may be the next target. You won’t deserve to be, of course, but if you are, you’ll need support.
People like to say, “If you do X, you’re letting the trolls win.” If you let them get to you. If you pay attention to them. If you let them silence you. But I think the biggest victory for the trolls would be if we let them poison further our professional environment. So how we treat each other will reveal not just who we think we are as a discipline, but who we really are.
Donna Zuckerberg is the Editor-in-Chief of Eidolon. She received her PhD in Classics from Princeton, and her writing has appeared in the TLS, Jezebel, The Establishment, and Avidly. Her book Not All Dead White Men, a study of the reception of Classics in Red Pill communities, is forthcoming from Harvard University Press in Fall 2018.
We are delighted that the Women’s Classical Committee UK will have a very strong presence at the upcoming Classical Association conference in Leicester. If you’d like to catch up with us, here’s what’s going on…
Take A Graduate Student To Lunch
We will be running the first of our mentoring events as part of our aim to advance equality and diversity in Classics and to provide support for junior colleagues in the profession. Modelled on the Women’s Classical Caucus SCS ‘Research Coffees’ scheme, this process promotes mentoring connections between established and junior scholars. We hope that junior researchers will get together informally with established scholars to gain from their expertise and discuss their research and career aspirations. We will do our best to match up mentors and mentees appropriately, and then pass on mentees’ contact details to their mentors, who will then get in touch to arrange the meeting. Participation is open to current members only and an e-mail with more details will be going out soon; if you have questions about how to sign up, please e-mail us at womensclassicalcommittee at gmail.com. You can find out how to join the WCC UK here.
Saturday 7th April
8pm – social event, the Marquis Wellington pub. Coordinator – Liz Gloyn. Turn up, have a drink or a smoothie, and chat to like-minded classicists – and be ahead of the crowd for the conference disco which begins at 9pm!
Sunday 8th April
9am-11am – WCC UK organised panel 1: Materiality and Gender I
Chair: Liz Gloyn
S. Sheard – Gendering the Projecta Casket
S. Rainbow – The Gendering of Lefkandi Knives
E. Mackin Roberts – Girls’ Bodies as Religious Objects in Classical Athens
L. Webb – Gendering The Roman Imago:Clarae Imagines from Filia to Funus
2pm-4pm – WCC UK organised panel 2: Materiality and Gender II
Chair: Rosa Andújar
K. Backler – Μνήματα Χειρῶν: Textiles and their Authors in the Homeric Epics
M. Gerolemou: Material Agents: Hesiod’s Pandora and Posthuman Feminism
K. Ladianou – Material Girls in Sparta: Language, Performance and Materiality in Alcman’s Partheneion
C. Blanco – Women Feminising the Womaniser: The Case of Deianira in Sophocles’ Women of Trachis
Please also keep an eye out for members of the WCC UK sporting badges featuring our brand new logo, once more coordinated by Ellie Mackin Roberts. We are delighted that once again the CA will be including membership form for the WCC UK in conference attendee packs this year, and hope that our membership will grow from our profile at the conference. If you’re reading this post, will not be at the CA and would like to join, our membership form is also available online.
The Women’s Classical Committee UK is organising an event aimed at mid-career scholars, to be held on Monday 26th March 2018 in the Classics Department, Durham University, from 11am to 4.30pm. These times allow for same-day rail travel from as far as St Andrews and London.
Attendees at our first mid-career workshop in December 2016 reported that they found it incredibly helpful in developing their ideas and strategies concerning the issues and challenges that face women academics at mid-career, and as a result we plan to make this an annual event, held in different venues around the country in turn. Topics to be discussed may include decisions about whether and when to move institutions, questions around disciplinarity/interdisciplinarity and collaboration in research, expectations about international mobility and balancing this with family/caring duties, managing institutional expectations (which may be gendered) around types and levels of administrative service, taking on leadership positions, and strategies to tackle unconscious bias in the workplace. Those who register their interest in participating will be invited to fill in an online questionnaire, the results of which will inform the precise choice of topics for discussion sessions. We envisage that the day’s discussions will help to set priorities for resource development and future campaigns by the Women’s Classical Committee.
The WCC recognises that the term ‘mid-career’ is open to a range of interpretations, but also that different challenges face women in classics in different situations and career stages. This event is aimed primarily at women who have already achieved employment stability and established a publication profile. If the event is oversubscribed then we will give priority to women in this situation, but we welcome applications to register from anyone of any gender who feels they would benefit from attending.
The Women’s Classical Committee is committed to making our events as inclusive as possible, and recognises that the financial and practical challenges of childcare often impede people from participating in workshops and conferences. Anyone who needs to bring a dependent child or children with them in order to participate in one of our events is usually welcome to do so, but we ask you to inform of us this in advance so that we can take them into account in our event planning and risk assessment. The safety and well-being of any children brought to our events remain at all times the responsibility of the parent or carer. While we do our best to ensure that rest and changing facilities are available for those who may need them, this will depend on the individual venue we are using. Again, please contact us in advance to discuss your needs, and we will do our best to accommodate them.
Have you fallen off a mentorship cliff? Are you wondering how to balance research, teaching, and administrative service? Do you wonder how, or if, you should move into leadership positions? Are you struggling to find work-life balance as a university academic?
Following the success of our December 2016 event, the Women’s Classical Committee UK is organising a second day of informal discussion focusing on the issues and challenges facing mid-career scholars. We will meet on Monday 26th March 2018 at Durham University from 11.30am to 5pm, which should allow train travel on the day from as far as St Andrews, Oxford, Cambridge, or London. The programme will be tailored to the interests and needs of those attending.
This event is aimed primarily at women Classicists who have already achieved employment stability and established a publication profile but have not yet, or have only recently, been promoted to Professor. If the event is oversubscribed we will give priority to applicants who fit this description, but all are welcome. It will be free to members and £10 for non-members, to include lunch, and the usual WCC event policies will apply (meaning that you are welcome to bring a child or children with you, and that we aim to meet all participants’ accessibility needs).
Keep an eye open for fuller details and registration, here and on the Liverpool List, in the new year!
A message from our Elections Officer, Virginia Campbell, about the recent WCC UK steering committee elections:
“On behalf of the WCC UK Steering Committee, I am pleased to announced that Susan Deacy and Claire Millington have been elected to join the Steering Committee. They will assume their places on the committee at the AGM in April 2017, serving for a term of four years.
I would like to thank all members who voted, and more importantly, the candidates who offered their time to serve the WCC. It was a close contest, and the dedication and commitment of all of the candidates to the work of the WCC is commendable.”
Registration is now open for the Women’s Classical Committee 2017 AGM, to be held on Thursday 20th April at the Ioannou Centre, Oxford.
Programme as at 23/2:
10.00am – Arrival/coffee
10.15 – Welcome and WCC report – Dr Elena Theodorakopoulos (University of Birmingham).
10.30 – Panel session: diversity in Classics
Speakers: Prof Helen Lovatt, University of Nottingham, Latin literature; Dr Rachel Mairs, University of Reading, papyrology; Dr Ellie Mackin, University of Leicester, ancient history
11.45 – Spotlight talks I: three short talks on current research relevant to the AGM’s theme. Speakers to be confirmed.
12.15 – Keynote speaker: Professor Dame Averil Cameron
12.45 – Lunch
13.45 – Dr Anna Bull, 1752 Group (University of Portsmouth), followed by discussion.
14.15 – Discussion sessions – a variety of break-out panels to choose from. Please sign up at registration. The groups will be facilitated by WCC committee members and liaisons.
14.45 – Feedback
15.15 – Spotlight talks II: three short talks on current research relevant to the AGM’s theme. Speakers to be confirmed.
15.35 – Keynote speaker: Dr Jo Quinn (University of Oxford)
16.30 – Official business meeting of the Women’s Classical Committee and tea
17.30 – Close
We’re very excited about this AGM and are looking forward to sharing what we’ve done over the past year and discussing our plans for the year ahead.
You can find more details about the AGM on its dedicated webpage; booking is being handled through Eventbrite. Don’t forget that paid-up members are entitled to a complimentary ticket – instructions have already been sent out to current members, so if you need to renew your membership, now is a good time to do it!
The 2017 AGM of the Women’s Classical Committee is generously supported by the Classical Association, the Craven Committee at Oxford University and the Faculty of Classics, Oxford.
On Monday 23rd January 2017 the Women’s Classical Committee held a Wikipedia training/editing event at the Institute of Classical Studies in London. This event was designed to begin redressing the gender imbalance in Wikipedia’s representation of classical scholars. Supported by expert trainers from Wikimedia UK, participants (both those in the room and others joining by Skype from as far away as Argentina) learned the basics of creating and editing Wikipedia pages as well as hearing more about some of the initiatives run by Wikimedia to promote gender equality on the site (take a look, for example, at Wikipedia’s Women in Red project or 100 Women, run in conjunction with the BBC). We were then able to begin creating new pages for scholars who had so far been overlooked in the online encyclopaedia, and to expand on those which were lacking in detail.
At the start of the day it was estimated that only 10 per cent of Wikipedia’s approximately 200 biographies of classical scholars were focused on women; as a direct result of the event around fifteen more women scholars are now represented on the site. These include Miriam Griffin (who was until now mentioned only in a dead link on her husband’s page), Jenny Strauss Clay and Christiane Sourvinou-Inwood. Since then participants have been continuing with their editing work, and we plan to keep up the momentum with future face-to-face training events as well as a monthly remote editing session, to be held from 1-3pm on the 22nd of every month. If you’re interested in participating in future sessions please see the project page for further details and some tips on getting started, and follow #WCCWiki on Twitter.
The Women’s Classical Committee UK is pleased to announce its 2017 Annual General Meeting, “Diversity in Classics”, on Thursday 20th April 2017 at the Ioannou Centre, Oxford.
The AGM seeks to highlight current feminist and gender-informed research in classical studies, and to discuss issues facing women in Classics. Through a series of talks and discussions we will address the question of diversity in Classics, present new research, and report back on the activities of the WCC UK during its first year.
We are also reserving time during the day’s schedule for a series of short (five-minute) spotlight talks by delegates. Through this session, we hope to provide a chance for delegates to share projects, experiences or research connected to the WCC’s aims. We are particularly interested in talks that address the AGM’s theme of diversity in Classics; that highlight new, feminist, intersectional and gender-informed work in Classics, ancient history, classical reception or pedagogy (inside and outside the university sector); and that feature new work by postgraduate students and early-career researchers. If you would like more information or to volunteer to give one of these talks, please e-mail Carol Atack (carol.atack@st-hughs.ox.ac.uk). The deadline for expressing interest is 5pm on Friday 10th March.
People of any gender expression or identity who support the WCC’s aims are welcome to attend this event. For further details, see our website at https://wcc-uk.blogs.sas.ac.uk/about-us/.
For more information on the Women’s Classical Committee, including our aims and activities and how to join, please see our websitehttps://wcc-uk.blogs.sas.ac.uk/about-us/join-us/
Child-friendly policy
The Women’s Classical Committee is committed to making our events as inclusive as possible, and recognises that the financial and practical challenges of childcare often impede people from participating in workshops and conferences. Anyone who needs to bring a dependent child or children with them in order to participate in one of our events is usually welcome to do so, but we ask you to inform us of this in advance so that we can take them into account in our event planning and risk assessment. The safety and well-being of any children brought to our events remain at all times the responsibility of the parent or carer. While we do our best to ensure that rest and changing facilities are available for those who may need them, this will depend on the individual venue we are using. Again, please contact us in advance to discuss your needs, and we will do our best to accommodate them.
After our successful mid-career event in December 2016, Prof. Helen Lovatt (University of Nottingham) reflects on managing academic workloads, avoiding burn-out and saying no.
Managing academic workloads: Reasonable duties to take on
We are all asked to do extra work around the core activities of our jobs, much of it unpaid citizenship duties, such as refereeing articles and reviewing books. I have recently tried to set limits on what I will agree to do in any period of time. Everyone has their own circumstances that will affect what they can manage, and it is important to tailor your limits to your situation. Having a limit set for yourself in advance can make it easier to say no, since you have already in effect made the decision. It is important to do some refereeing, or the system will cease to work (we all know how dispiriting it is to have an article refereed by someone who knows nothing about the subject or has no time to give a proper report or helpful, constructive criticism). Some things (keynote address at conference, major named lecture) are important sources of prestige and recognition, but many only have a small cumulative impact.
Book reviews: reading a whole book thoroughly takes me a very long time nowadays with my sight problems. I would not do more than one a year, and struggle with that.
Refereeing book manuscripts for publishers: again I would not do more than one a year of these, and for edited collections of articles which tend to be longer and have more problems, I am reluctant to do that again. (Think fourteen refereed articles…) This is normally paid, but not nearly enough.
Refereeing articles: two a year. Another colleague suggests that one should referee two articles for every one journal article that you submit to a journal, so that you contribute to the system as much as you take.
Editing books: one every five years or only one volume on the go at any one time. This job takes me a huge amount of time. I have a friend who seems to do dozens, and they must have an efficient system, but I find this a very stressful and difficult job.
PhD externalling: not more than two a year. One would be better. Again, it takes a very long time for me to read a PhD.
External examining: definitely not more than one external examinership at any one time, preferably a gap of three years between stints (but I haven’t managed that). I try to take on roles that don’t involve too much travelling, will be interesting and are not too onerous, and I might agree to a role that fits these criteria to protect myself from taking on something worse.
Membership of committees/national bodies: only one active role (currently CUCD education chair) and I would again aim for a break between stints.
Conferences: I very rarely volunteer to speak at conferences; only when I want to get into a new area and know that no-one would invite me unless I show that I am working in the area. This can lead to being typecast in previous areas of work, but I find it is good to keep my research interests going since I often still have things to say on areas I have previously worked on. I particularly try to avoid conferences during teaching term as it is very stressful to re-schedule teaching. Conferences can be a really useful way of coming up to speed quickly on a new area, particularly for me as it involves listening rather than reading. But they are also tempting distractions from the required work of writing, publishing, teaching and departmental admin.
Organising conferences: not more than one major conference every three years. One day events are much easier to organise, and I can manage one a year of those. For the CA conference, not more than once a life-time would be my recommendation! Again this is a lot of work and best done as an enthusiastic early career researcher, keen to get your name recognised.
Schools talks/INSET days/local CA talks: not more than two a semester, preferably one. These can also take a great deal of work, including days of travel, weeks of writing or preparation.
New teaching: not more than one new module a semester, preferably one new module a year. If I have a new or major admin role I will try to avoid any new teaching.
PhD students: take up an enormous amount of time and emotional energy, although also very rewarding. Be sure that you really want to spend the next four years seeing this person regularly and that it’s a topic you are really committed to and interested in. My university regards number of PhD students as a promotion indicator, but I think it might be a good idea to set a limit on the number I take on at any one time (three, perhaps, as a colleague does?). The problem is that in a competitive funding situation it’s hard to know which students are likely to come through.
Articles in companions etc: These are usually unlikely to be REFable but they will get you known among students and academics. I would not do more than one of these a year.
When I was finishing off my last book to meet the REF deadline I cut back on everything that I could, including pulling out of conferences and edited volumes to which I was not committed enough, and on which I had not already done any real work, or felt I didn’t have anything to say. I don’t like doing this, but circumstances can change. If you let people know as soon as you can, well in advance of any deadlines/events, politely and explain the circumstances, you usually don’t damage relationships too much. But it’s better to think through what you take on in the first place. Better to drop out than to keep putting it off and never actually produce.
Some questions to ask when you are asked to do something:
Am I the only person who could do this? Is this really my job?
Am I the best person to do this? Could someone else do it better? Could someone else benefit from doing it?
Will this job help someone or create a better system?
Will it be fun, interesting or rewarding? Does it fit with my current aims and priorities?
How much time will it take and do I have that time available to fit with the schedule?
Burn-out avoidance
This is essentially my plan to avoid burn-out. ‘Burn-out’ is a condition of stress or mild depression when you lose motivation, concentration and the ability to prioritise and make decisions. It is usually caused when there are far too many things to do, you have lived on last-minute adrenaline for too long, and your long-term aims don’t match with the activities on which you spend the majority of your time. I do sometimes feel that I spend a lot of time doing things that I am not very good at, and I need to try and avoid this feeling.
Academic external tasks are often enjoyable and interesting, but even then, if there are too many of them, you will lose the will to live. It’s important to do something intellectually stimulating towards a long-term goal every day, if only for half an hour. It’s also important to take proper time off when you do other things that you enjoy (in my case, playing the tenor horn in a brass band), to which you have to give your whole attention. Also, take all your annual leave. You will be more productive in the rest of the time!
I do know some successful Professors of Classics who say that they always say yes to everything. They are men.
Ways to say no
Dear friend
Thank you for thinking of me to referee this article/book/participate in this conference. I’m afraid I’m already overcommitted next month/next year and I can’t take anything else on. However, my former PhD student X who is now teaching at Y university might be a very good alternative choice.
All the best and sorry I couldn’t help on this occasion.
Me
Dear publisher
I might be interested in writing a book on X, but my current research direction is more Y. Would you be interested in a book on Y? I would only be able to begin writing it after I have completed my current major project, so not for at least three years.
All best
Me
Dear school/CA person
Thank you for the invitation to give a talk. I would normally be delighted but unfortunately I have to finish a major project this year and can’t take on anything extra. I’d be very happy to do it next year.
Two positions are currently available on the Steering Committee of the WCC UK. The Steering Committee runs the WCC UK, including organizing events, workshops, and overseeing future development of the WCC UK. Committee members serve for four years, and may stand for a second consecutive term. Three members of the WCC UK have been nominated to serve on the Steering Committee. A short CV and statement have been provided by each candidate for review by members of the WCC UK prior to voting.
Voting will open on the 15th of December and run until the 15th of February. The elected members will be announced in late February, and will assume office at the AGM in April of 2017. If you are a member of the WCC UK in good standing, you will receive an email with a link for voting online. If you do not receive an email or have any questions, please contact the Elections Officer, Virginia L. Campbell, virginialcampbell@gmail.com.
We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it.